Hi, All!


In Winnie-The-Pooh and All, All, All, by Alan Alexander Miln I read:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
THE Piglet lived in a very grand house in the middle of a beech-
tree, and the beech-tree was in the middle of the forest, and the Piglet
lived in the middle of the house. Next to his house was a piece of
broken board which had: "TRESPASSERS W" on it. When Christopher Robin
asked the Piglet what it meant, he said it was his grandfather's name,
and had been in the family for a long time. Christopher Robin said you
couldn't be called Trespassers W, and Piglet said yes, you could,
because his grandfather was, and it was short for Trespassers Will,
which was short for Trespassers William. And his grandfather had had two
names in case he lost one -- Trespassers after an uncle, and William
after Trespassers. "I've got two names," said Christopher Robin
carelessly.

"Well, there you are, that proves it," said Piglet.
One fine winter's day when Piglet was brushing away the snow in
front of his house, he happened to look up, and there was Winnie-the-
Pooh. Pooh was walking round and round in a circle, thinking of
something else, and when Piglet called to him, he just went on walking.
----- The end of the citation -----


Why at first the author used "the" before Piglet, and then he trashed it into the dust bin, probably having tired of it? ;-)

Bye, All!
Alexander Koryagin

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Alexander Koryagin <[email protected].2> wrote:

In Winnie-The-Pooh and All, All, All, by Alan Alexander Miln I read:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
THE Piglet lived in a very grand house in the middle of a beech-
tree, and the beech-tree was in the middle of the forest, and the Piglet lived in the middle of the house. Next to his house was a piece of
broken board which had: "TRESPASSERS W" on it. When Christopher Robin asked the Piglet what it meant, he said it was his grandfather's name,
and had been in the family for a long time. Christopher Robin said you couldn't be called Trespassers W, and Piglet said yes, you could,
because his grandfather was, and it was short for Trespassers Will,
which was short for Trespassers William. And his grandfather had had two names in case he lost one -- Trespassers after an uncle, and William
after Trespassers. "I've got two names," said Christopher Robin carelessly.

"Well, there you are, that proves it," said Piglet.
One fine winter's day when Piglet was brushing away the snow in
front of his house, he happened to look up, and there was Winnie-the- Pooh. Pooh was walking round and round in a circle, thinking of
something else, and when Piglet called to him, he just went on walking. ----- The end of the citation -----

Why at first the author used "the" before Piglet, and then he trashed it into the dust bin, probably having tired of it? ;-)

My opinion:
At first, `piglet' was a mere /noun/,
but once the reader was used to him
as a the member of the merry company,
it becane the /name/.

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Anton Shepelev!
I read your message from 23.09.2024 11:01

-----Beginning of the citation-----
THE Piglet lived in a very grand house in the middle of a beech-
tree, and the beech-tree was in the middle of the forest, and the
Piglet lived in the middle of the house. Next to his house was a
piece of broken board which had: "TRESPASSERS W" on it. When
Christopher Robin asked the Piglet what it meant, he said it was
his grandfather's name, and had been in the family for a long
time. Christopher Robin said you couldn't be called Trespassers W,
and Piglet said yes, you could, because his grandfather was, and
it was short for Trespassers Will, which was short for Trespassers
William. And his grandfather had had two names in case he lost
one -- Trespassers after an uncle, and William after
Trespassers. "I've got two names," said Christopher Robin
carelessly.

"Well, there you are, that proves it," said Piglet. One fine
winter's day when Piglet was brushing away the snow in front of
his house, he happened to look up, and there was Winnie-the-Pooh.
Pooh was walking round and round in a circle, thinking of
something else, and when Piglet called to him, he just went on
walking.
----- The end of the citation -----

Why at first the author used "the" before Piglet, and then he
trashed it into the dust bin, probably having tired of it? ;-)

My opinion:
At first, `piglet' was a mere /noun/,
but once the reader was used to him
as a the member of the merry company,
it becane the /name/.

If Miln had put it with a capital first letter it was rather a name.

Bye, Anton!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi Alexander,

Wed 25 Sep 2024 at 11:26, you wrote to Anton Shepelev:

Pooh was walking round and round in a circle, thinking of something
else, and when Piglet called to him, he just went on walking.
----- The end of the citation -----
Why at first the author used "the" before Piglet, and then he
trashed it into the dust bin, probably having tired of it? ;-)

Could be the answer is already in your question. He most likely got tired and dropped it. :-)

My opinion:
At first, `piglet' was a mere /noun/, but once the reader was used to
him as a the member of the merry company, it becane the /name/.

If Miln had put it with a capital first letter it was rather a name.

It seems at first it was a denotation and a name at the same time. The writer was introducing "The Piglet" as an "object" in the story in the course of 2-3 sentences, and then it actually settled in as a personal name.


... Error #033: Erronious error. Nothing wrong.
--- A Damned Hobbyist+ (1.1.5-b20170303)
* Origin: Microspoof, Inc. (2:5023/24.4222)

Hi Alexander,

If Miln had put it with a capital first letter it was rather a
name.

It seems at first it was a denotation and a name at the same time. The writer was introducing "The Piglet" as an "object" in the story in the course of 2-3 sentences, and then it actually settled in as a personal name.

Have you heard an idiom "Keeping up with the Joneses"?

As I've mentioned earlier, English articles are quite an interesting subject to study per se, and speaking of it in regard to its usage with names and proper nouns, here's some info that might help us:

======
More generally, using an article before a proper noun that doesn't have one built into it (as the United States and the Rolling Stones do) is one example of using a proper noun as a countable noun.

There are several reasons why we might do that normally. One is to say something like "there are three Johns in the group", meaning "there are three people called John in the group".

Another is to add distance to the identification; "I have a John Smith on the line" is a common expression for "I have someone on the line, who tells me he is John Smith, and that is all that is known about him". A similar is to report, e.g. "One John Smith is accused of the crime", emphasising that we have no further identifying details at present, and hence we are not stating precisely which person of that name is the subject of the sentence.

Another is to use a proper noun as an example of particular traits that could also be held by others (a type of synecdoche). "The next Bob Dylan" (a singer-songwriter from the folk scene who will repeat Dylan's success), "He's an Einstein" (he's very smart), "All Mozarts have their Salieris" (not really true even for Mozart and Salieri, but let's say we believed the film Amadeus was accurate).

Another, almost inverse to this, is to speak of the person or thing signified by the proper noun at a particular time, or from a particular perspective: "The London of a hundred years ago was a notoriously unhealthy place", "The John you know is not the John I know" (that could also mean you are talking of a literally different person, depending on context).

The above are reasonably standard, though figurative.

Another common variation is to jokingly make use of these forms, when one normally would not. If talking of a friend, we would generally use their name as a proper noun, because that's how names work in English, but since every person called George is "a George", and so on the form is logically correct, though not strictly good English. To use it of a friend could suggest that you have gotten as far as knowing it's a George, but not which one, or that George's are all alike and you've hence found someone who will have all the George-like qualities that George has. Both obviously are not sensible, but therein is the joke. Another variant would be if you were looking for George, and then spotted him. Again "ah, there's a George" would suggest that you'd were just looking for Georges generally, which again is not sensible, hence the joke.

All of these last cases are examples of deliberately bad English, used as a joke, rather than something that would normally be considered correct.

[A completely different case is when there's a word that is the same as a proper noun, but isn't a proper noun, of which some slang cases started as a proper noun and are hence sometimes capitalised.]
====== From: english.stackexchange.com/questions/104439/indefinite-article-and-peoples-names


... Error #00�: Memory hog error. More RAM needed. More! More!
--- A Damned Hobbyist+ (1.1.5-b20170303)
* Origin: Microspoof, Inc. (2:5023/24.4222)

Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
I read your message from 27.09.2024 08:53

If Miln had put it with a capital first letter it was rather a
name.

It seems at first it was a denotation and a name at the same time.
The writer was introducing "The Piglet" as an "object" in the
story in the course of 2-3 sentences, and then it actually settled
in as a personal name.

However the reason could be the same as for "the King" ;-)

Have you heard an idiom "Keeping up with the Joneses"?
As I've mentioned earlier, English articles are quite an
interesting subject to study per se, and speaking of it in regard
to its usage with names and proper nouns, here's some info that
might help us:

=====
More generally, using an article before a proper noun that doesn't
have one built into it (as the United States and the Rolling Stones
do) is one example of using a proper noun as a countable noun.

There are several reasons why we might do that normally. One is to
say something like "there are three Johns in the group",
meaning "there are three people called John in the group".

It is not an example of article using -- No article. Although... even a fist can serve as zero when we use fingers to tell the result of 5 minus 5. ;-)

Another is to add distance to the identification; "I have a John
Smith on the line" is a common expression for "I have someone on
the line, who tells me he is John Smith, and that is all that is
known about him". A similar is to report, e.g. "One John Smith is
accused of the crime", emphasising that we have no further
identifying details at present, and hence we are not stating
precisely which person of that name is the subject of the sentence.

Probably there is no similar name in Russian. Although we can say that in Russia there many Putins (people with "Putin" as a second name). Can you imagine how feels a teacher when she is saying "Putin, stop babbling!" ;-)

Another is to use a proper noun as an example of particular traits
that could also be held by others (a type of synecdoche). "The next
Bob Dylan" (a singer-songwriter from the folk scene who will repeat Dylan's success), "He's an Einstein" (he's very smart), "All
Mozarts have their Salieris" (not really true even for Mozart and
Salieri, but let's say we believed the film Amadeus was accurate).

Yeah, some politicians, for instance, can act as a Napoleon.

Another, almost inverse to this, is to speak of the person or thing signified by the proper noun at a particular time, or from a
particular perspective: "The London of a hundred years ago was a notoriously unhealthy place", "The John you know is not the John I
know" (that could also mean you are talking of a literally
different person, depending on context).
The above are reasonably standard, though figurative.

Well, it is not very unusual. We can say for instance about the Moscow of 193s.

Another common variation is to jokingly make use of these forms,
when one normally would not. If talking of a friend, we would
generally use their name as a proper noun, because that's how names
work in English, but since every person called George is "a
George", and so on the form is logically correct, though not
strictly good English. To use it of a friend could suggest that you
have gotten as far as knowing it's a George, but not which one, or
that George's are all alike and you've hence found someone who will
have all the George-like qualities that George has. Both obviously
are not sensible, but therein is the joke. Another variant would be
if you were looking for George, and then spotted him. Again "ah,
there's a George" would suggest that you'd were just looking for
Georges generally, which again is not sensible, hence the joke.

Probably if we add "a" to the name we lift the person status. This person (his name) becomes like a benchmark.

All of these last cases are examples of deliberately bad English,
used as a joke, rather than something that would normally be
considered correct.

It seems to me they are not bad English, but they reflect its flexibility.

[A completely different case is when there's a word that is the
same as a proper noun, but isn't a proper noun, of which some slang
cases started as a proper noun and are hence sometimes
capitalised.]

In short "the Piglet" is in capital may be for this reason -- it was the only little swine in this novel. ;-) A capital letter was rewarded to him probably because they called him "piglet", and it became a proper name. It was the only piglet in the story. In Russia we have a fairy-tale about three piglets and a wolf. In our case every piglet has a personal name. ;)

Bye, Gleb!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
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Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

Christopher Robin said you couldn't be called Trespassers W,
and Piglet said yes, you could, because his grandfather was,
and it was short for Trespassers Will, which was short for
Trespassers William.

Or something more like "trespassers will be prosecuted".... :-Q

Why at first the author used "the" before Piglet, and then he
trashed it into the dust bin, probably having tired of it? ;-)

Maybe his readers would find the repetition boring too. Sometimes we address people in English by their occupational title... e.g. Doctor, Nurse, Mr. President... and I understand Jesus was addressed as Rabbi in his own time.

Once we've been introduced & know him a little better we can refer to this character as Piglet. It makes more sense than Trespassers W, and a hundred years ago various nouns were often capitalized in English as they are in German.

It is also worth noting, I think, that Christopher Robin was the name of the author's son. As for the animal characters, many were probably given the names a child would have given to his toys... +/- the exception of the bear, who seems to have been named in part after one of the animals in the London Zoo.

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as A. A. Milne.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 28.09.2024 18:12

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as A. A.
Milne.... :-)

It interesting how an Englishman would write this second name if he had never seen it written? ;-)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as
A. A. Milne.... :-)

It interesting how an Englishman would write this
second name if he had never seen it written? ;-)

I noticed his middle name was identical to your first name. Is that what you had in mind? The name is not uncommon in English, although it may be shortened at times, and we spell it exactly as you do here.

I've also noticed messages from other Russians who transliterate the name with a few variations... however, their spelling makes sense to me.

I guess if I'd never seen your name written down &/or you asked me to approximate it phonetically I might spell it "A leg ZAN der". But I doubt your pronunciation would be very different from mine because the Russian "Mikhail" & the equivalent "Michael" sound the same to my untutored Anglophone ear.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi Ardith,

03.10.2024 3:58:10, Ardith Hinton
<[email protected]> wrote:

I guess if I'd never seen your name written down &/or you
asked me to approximate it phonetically I might spell it "A leg ZAN
der".

There's only a slight difference. I believe this is because "Alexander"
is a Greek originated name which came into English via French, and the
French tend to pronounce "x" consonants mostly as [gz]. Russian
inherited it directly from Greek so we pronounce it the Greek way as
[ks].


--
"If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let
'em go, because, man, they're gone." -- Jack Handey
--- InterSquish NNTP Server/FTN Gate
* Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 03.10.2024 02:58

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as A. A.
Milne.... :-)

It interesting how an Englishman would write this second name if
he had never seen it written? ;-)

I noticed his middle name was identical to your first name. Is that
what you had in mind? The name is not uncommon in English, although
it may be shortened at times, and we spell it exactly as you do
here.

I've also noticed messages from other Russians who transliterate
the name with a few variations... however, their spelling makes
sense to me.

I guess if I'd never seen your name written down &/or you asked me
to approximate it phonetically I might spell it "A leg ZAN der".
But I doubt your pronunciation would be very different from mine
because the Russian "Mikhail" & the equivalent "Michael" sound the
same to my untutored Anglophone ear.... :-)

I asked about the second name. How would you write it "Milne" or "Miln" if you never saw it written.

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Gleb! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

I guess if I'd never seen your name written down &/or you
asked me to approximate it phonetically I might spell it
"A leg ZAN der".

There's only a slight difference. I believe this is because
"Alexander" is a Greek originated name

Quite possibly. The earliest occurrence of this name I know of, i.e. "Alexander the Great", dates back about 2400 years.

which came into English via French,

As a proper noun, maybe. OTOH it is also used as a botanical name... which my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY tells me comes from medieval Latin.

IMHO the history of the English language tends to reflect who invaded the Island of Great Britain at what time & the ancient Romans did it long before "William the Conqueror" did. We'll adopt a good word from anywhere. :-)

and the French tend to pronounce "x" consonants mostly as
[gz].

As we do in this case. I've seen it spelled "Alexandre" In French...

Russian inherited it directly from Greek so we pronounce it
the Greek way as [ks].

... and I've also seen it spelled "Aleksandr" by Russian Fidonetters. While I can understand that, there are details which continue to puzzle me.

I think what Alexander most needs to know is that when we shorten his name to "Alex" in English we use the /ks/ as he would. But meanwhile Dallas & I had a wonderful time researching the topic, for which we thank you... [chuckle].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as
A. A. Milne.... :-)

[...]

I asked about the second name.

Oh, I see. I'd describe the initials here as representing a person's given names and "Milne" as a surname or family name.

I understand these things work a bit differently WRT Russian names... and to complicate matters, a person's given name may also be the mother's maiden name and/or another individual's surname where I come from.

How would you write it "Milne" or "Miln" if you
never saw it written.

Well, it does rhyme with "kiln"... so if I'd never seen or heard this name before I might employ the latter until I had time to investigate further.

YMMV because I live in a country where most people speak English, but I'd probably start with the Vancouver telephone directory. When I see there are +/- 100 entries for "Milne" but none for "Miln" I believe the former is correct.

When I recognize it as the name of a well-known author I have various other choices. I can consult a modern English/English dictionary which includes some proper nouns where older ones don't. I can check the card catalogue at the public library. I can ask the nearest English major, elementary school teacher, teacher/librarian, etc. Or I can search the Internet... which may sometimes for whatever reason be more easily said than done wherever one happens to live. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 08.10.2024 21:36

The author, BTW, is generally known Over Here as A. A.
Milne.... :-)

I asked about the second name.

Oh, I see. I'd describe the initials here as representing a
person's given names and "Milne" as a surname or family name.

I understand these things work a bit differently WRT Russian
names... and to complicate matters, a person's given name may also
be the mother's maiden name and/or another individual's surname
where I come from.

Is it correct that a second name is always equal to a surname or family name?

How would you write it "Milne" or "Miln" if you never saw it
written.

Well, it does rhyme with "kiln"... so if I'd never seen or heard
this name before I might employ the latter until I had time to
investigate further.

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and don't pronounce this letter. ;) Maybe Milne was spoken differently in the past?

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 08.10.2024 21:36

Is it correct that a second name is always equal to a surname or family name?

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and don't pronounce this letter. ;) Maybe Milne was spoken differently in the past?

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

My First and Second Names are from my maternal grandfather and paternal grandfather.
Ed Vance
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Hi, Ed! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

My First and Second Names are from my maternal grandfather
and paternal grandfather.

Uh-huh. I'm told one of my female relatives was named after her maternal & paternal grandmothers. Same idea, different gender.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

I asked about the second name.

Oh, I see. I'd describe the initials here as representing a
person's given names and "Milne" as a surname or family name.

I understand these things work a bit differently WRT Russian
names... and to complicate matters, a person's given name may
also be the mother's maiden name and/or another individual's
surname where I come from.

Is it correct that a second name is always equal to a surname
or family name?

Not always. If another man introduced himself to you as "Alan Milne" his surname/family name would be the second of two names & for everyday purposes this works most of the time. But a lot of folks have one or more "middle names" they rarely use. In this case we know the man's middle name or use his initials
... but then we have three items in the series. If he wasn't an author he might not have disclosed this information & we wouldn't have to redo the math.... :-)

How would you write it "Milne" or "Miln" if you never saw
it written.

Well, it does rhyme with "kiln"... so if I'd never seen or
heard this name before I might employ the latter until I had
time to investigate further.

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language
evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and
don't pronounce this letter. ;)

In some cases at least a word has been adopted from a Scandinavian or northern European language & we've trimmed a few inflections etc. :-))

Maybe Milne was spoken differently in the past?

Quite possibly. There are many different dialects in the UK, and for us it's not easy to be sure how or when the pronunciation may have changed. One must also realize that before the advent of the printing press spellings weren't standardized the way they are now. I've heard Shakespeare didn't always use the same spelling of his own name... and other names often have variations too. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 12.10.2024 19:20

How would you write it "Milne" or "Miln" if you never saw
it written.

Well, it does rhyme with "kiln"... so if I'd never seen or
heard this name before I might employ the latter until I had
time to investigate further.

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language
evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and
don't pronounce this letter. ;)

In some cases at least a word has been adopted from a
Scandinavian or northern European language & we've trimmed
a few inflections etc. :-))

In other words, in "Milne" and other similar cases you can put a letter for no reason and which has no any sense. Very probably this tricks came from French which is far ahead in this area.

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
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Coffee News is a newsletter found in local restaurants
.
In the October 14, 2024 edition is this:

A. A. Milne, the author of Winnie-the-Pooh, didn't invent the bear's name. His son, Christopher Robin Milne, called his own teddy bear Winnie after a visit to the London Zoo, where he saw a bear named for Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada).

Ed
--- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language
evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and
don't pronounce this letter. ;)

In some cases at least a word has been adopted from a
Scandinavian or northern European language & we've trimmed
a few inflections etc. :-))

In other words, in "Milne" and other similar cases you can
put a letter for no reason and which has no any sense.

Hmm. I think you were on the right track when you commented that the "e" in this name may have been spoken aloud years ago.

Pronunciations in English often vary from one time & place to another ... and I don't know where this name originated. But IMHO it's most likely the pronunciation changed & we never got around to changing the spelling. I'm told that's what happened with e.g. "gnash" and "knife".... :-)

Very probably this tricks came from French which is far
ahead in this area.

In French the phonics work differently from what we're used to... but we often say that if your mouth is full of wine or marbles you can cope. And I get the impression the upper classes in Russia preferred French (which may have worked for them when they didn't want the servants to get the drift) until they became disenchanted with Napoleon, then carefully reconstructed what's now your native language. The net result from my POV is that it's a lot younger than my native language & doesn't include complications like "silent letters".... :-))




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ed! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

Coffee News is a newsletter found in local restaurants

Yes, we have it here although it seems to be available only in the suburbs nowadays. I enjoy reading it when I can. :-)

In the October 14, 2024 edition is this:

A. A. Milne, the author of Winnie-the-Pooh, didn't invent
the bear's name. His son, Christopher Robin Milne, called
his own teddy bear Winnie after a visit to the London Zoo,
where he saw a bear named for Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada).

That is my understanding as well.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to ED VANCE:

A. A. Milne, the author of Winnie-the-Pooh, didn't invent the
bear's name. His son, Christopher Robin Milne, called his own
teddy bear Winnie after a visit to the London Zoo, where he
saw a bear named for Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada).

Slightly OT

No problem AFAIC. In discussing language & literature... which is what we do in this echo... it's generally regarded as a courtesy to tell the reader how &/or where you obtained your information, as you did.

I am also happy to expand on the historical & sociological details which pertain to the study of English if others are interested.

in 2017, I visited White River, Ontario, the town where Winnie
was found. The bear was named after the hometown of the
Canadian cavalry Captain who adopted the orphan bear in 1914.
It became the mascot for their brigade while they were stationed
in England, and was left at the London Zoo when the Captian was
shipped off to France.

Okay... so the original owner was in military service, then had to find another home for this critter when he got transferred. :-)

Another fun fact is that, although the Milne character is a male
bear, the real-life Winnipeg was a female.

Thank you... I didn't realize that. And although I had found some details like the others you mentioned, I was unable to find them again. :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
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Hi, Mike Powell!
I read your message from 16.10.2024 15:02

I was a couple of weeks late to visit the annual "Winnie's
Hometown Festival."

Another fun fact is that, although the Milne character is a
male bear, the real-life Winnipeg was a female.

But the word "bear" in English has the masculine gender? :)

Bye, Mike!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

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Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 17.10.2024 02:56

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language
evolution. How on earth you put a letter into the word and don't
pronounce this letter. ;)

In some cases at least a word has been adopted from a Scandinavian
or northern European language & we've trimmed a few inflections
etc. :-))

In other words, in "Milne" and other similar cases you can put a
letter for no reason and which has no any sense.

Hmm. I think you were on the right track when you commented that
the "e" in this name may have been spoken aloud years ago.

Usually in English e, i, y tell us about specific pronunciation of the syllable behind. For instance, "bit"/"bite", "kit"/"kite". However in astrology every letter is important and they say can change the person's destiny. ;)

Pronunciations in English often vary from one time & place to
another... and I don't know where this name originated. But IMHO
it's most likely the pronunciation changed & we never got around to changing the spelling. I'm told that's what happened with
e.g. "gnash" and "knife".... :-)

It would be interesting for me to learn who threw "k" first and why others started follow him. ;-)

Very probably this tricks came from French which is far ahead in
this area.

In French the phonics work differently from what we're used to...
but we often say that if your mouth is full of wine or marbles you
can cope. And I get the impression the upper classes in Russia
preferred French (which may have worked for them when they didn't
want the servants to get the drift) until they became disenchanted
with Napoleon, then carefully reconstructed what's now your native language. The net result from my POV is that it's a lot younger
than my native language & doesn't include complications
like "silent letters".... :-))

Yes, the French got a great impact on the Russian language, but Russians did not accept those crazy silent letters. So Bordeaux in Russia is just Bordo, and nobody suffers from it. ;-) I wonder when in the USA they simplified English they could do the same. What a lot of ink they could save! ;)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

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in 2017, I visited White River, Ontario, the town where Winnie
was found. The bear was named after the hometown of the
Canadian cavalry Captain who adopted the orphan bear in 1914.
It became the mascot for their brigade while they were stationed
in England, and was left at the London Zoo when the Captian was
shipped off to France.

Okay... so the original owner was in military service, then had to find another home for this critter when he got transferred. :-)

I think he was the original "known" owner. He got the bear from the local
who had originally found it.

Mike


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Another fun fact is that, although the Milne character is a
male bear, the real-life Winnipeg was a female.

But the word "bear" in English has the masculine gender? :)

No, I don't think so. Bear refers to both males and females. I am not
sure what, if any, the gender specific nouns for bear are.

Other animals, like deer, do have gender specific nouns. For deer, "doe"
is feminine, while "buck" is masculine.

Mike


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Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Usually in English e, i, y tell us about specific pronunciation
of the syllable behind. For instance, "bit"/"bite", "kit"/"kite".

The final "e" tells us how to pronounce the "i" in your examples... during medieval times, however, both letters may have been spoken aloud.

However in astrology

Or numerology, methinks.... :-)

every letter is important and they say can change the person's
destiny. ;)

Uh-huh. In English, you can spell a family name "Smythe" & require others to pronounce it "Smith". Years ago I knew somebody who did that. And names like "Brown" & "Clark" may be spelled with or without a final "e". The spelling of one's name may or may not influence the audience's reaction. :-Q

Pronunciations in English often vary from one time & place to
another... and I don't know where this name originated. But
IMHO it's most likely the pronunciation changed & we never got
around to changing the spelling. I'm told that's what happened
with e.g. "gnash" and "knife".... :-)

It would be interesting for me to learn who threw "k" first and
why others started follow him. ;-)

I don't know who did it or when... the OED might tell us more about that... but for native speakers of English, the initial consonants are rather difficult to pronounce without adding a vowel when one follows immediately on the other. I'm reminded here of the Danish King "Canute" (as I was taught to spell his name). During the 11th century he was king of England. But he was king of Denmark & Norway too... and many historians nowadays spell it "Cnut". While that may be more authentic from their POV I don't speak Danish.... :-)

I get the impression the upper classes in Russia preferred
French (which may have worked for them when they didn't want
the servants to get the drift) until they became disenchanted
with Napoleon, then carefully reconstructed what's now your
native language. The net result from my POV is that it's a
lot younger than my native language & doesn't include
complications like "silent letters"....

Yes, the French got a great impact on the Russian language,
but Russians did not accept those crazy silent letters. So
Bordeaux in Russia is just Bordo, and nobody suffers from it.

To my ears, however, the second "o" is elongated. If your language makes no such distinction I understand. I have to keep reminding myself that e.g. the word "venue" is pronounced differently in English & French.... :-))

in the USA they simplified English they could do the same. What
a lot of ink they could save! ;)

When the USA was established there were alternative spellings for a large number of words. They tended to choose the shorter & simpler ones, but this theory doesn't necessarily work as advertised in practice... [wry grin].




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 26.10.2024 19:24

However in astrology

Or numerology, methinks.... :-)

every letter is important and they say can change the person's
destiny. ;)

Uh-huh. In English, you can spell a family name "Smythe" & require
others to pronounce it "Smith". Years ago I knew somebody who did
that. And names like "Brown" & "Clark" may be spelled with or
without a final "e". The spelling of one's name may or may not
influence the audience's reaction.:-Q

Probably some people want to deceive the Devil while he peruse his list of those who must be taken to hell. ;-) Which Smith are you looking for? There is no such a person! :)

Pronunciations in English often vary from one time & place to
another... and I don't know where this name originated. But IMHO
it's most likely the pronunciation changed & we never got around
to changing the spelling. I'm told that's what happened with
e.g. "gnash" and "knife".... :-)

I suspect that "gn" and "kn" are forgotten English diphthongs, like "th". They probably sounded even more incomprehensive and tongue mutilating for common people that they refused from them. Of they simply couldn't pronounce it. ;-)

It would be interesting for me to learn who threw "k" first and
why others started follow him. ;-)

I don't know who did it or when... the OED might tell us more about that... but for native speakers of English, the initial consonants
are rather difficult to pronounce without adding a vowel when one
follows immediately on the other. I'm reminded here of the Danish
King "Canute" (as I was taught to spell his name). During the 11th
century he was king of England. But he was king of Denmark & Norway
too... and many historians nowadays spell it "Cnut". While that may
be more authentic from their POV I don't speak Danish.... :-)

It seems to me that the French origin of it is very likely, taking into account the great impact it exert on English. It possible that adding a silent "e" was even a mean to underline the French ancestry.

I get the impression the upper classes in Russia preferred French
(which may have worked for them when they didn't want the servants
to get the drift) until they became disenchanted with Napoleon,
then carefully reconstructed what's now your native language. The
net result from my POV is that it's a lot younger than my native
language & doesn't include complications like "silent letters"....

Yes, the French got a great impact on the Russian language, but
Russians did not accept those crazy silent letters. So Bordeaux in
Russia is just Bordo, and nobody suffers from it.

To my ears, however, the second "o" is elongated. If your language
makes no such distinction I understand. I have to keep reminding
myself that e.g. the word "venue" is pronounced differently in
English & French.... :-))

Yeah, the French don't like "e" at the end of words. ;-) As said one Russian literature personage "there there is some mystery or a perverted tastes". ;-)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hi, Mike! Recently you wrote in a message to ARDITH HINTON:

in 2017, I visited White River, Ontario, the town where Winnie
was found. The bear was named after the hometown of the
Canadian cavalry Captain who adopted the orphan bear in 1914.
It became the mascot for their brigade while they were stationed
in England, and was left at the London Zoo when the Captian was
shipped off to France.

Okay... so the original owner was in military service, then had

to find another home for this critter when he got transferred.

I think he was the original "known" owner. He got the bear from
the local who had originally found it.

I figured that was what you meant, but I probably should have asked.

Usually when we speak of adopting an animal somebody intends to give it a permanent home & whoever had been looking after it was unwilling or unable to continue doing this on a long-term basis.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

In English, you can spell a family name "Smythe" & require
others to pronounce it "Smith". Years ago I knew somebody
who did that. And names like "Brown" & "Clark" may be spelled
with or without a final "e". The spelling of one's name may
or may not influence the audience's reaction. :-Q

Probably some people want to deceive the Devil while he peruse
his list of those who must be taken to hell. ;-) Which Smith
are you looking for? There is no such a person! :)

Doing my best to finish organizing my thoughts by Hallowe'en, because the idea of pretending to be somebody else might initially have been an attempt to confound evil spirits. OTOH a person who has a less well-known surname told me the variation in spelling results from a family feud 'way back when.... :-)

I suspect that "gn" and "kn" are forgotten English diphthongs,
like "th".

Hmm. Technically, a diphthong is a two-part vowel sound... "th" is a consonant digraph in which two letters represent a single sound (our version of the Old & Middle English thorn)... while "gn" and "kn" are consonant blends.

I think it's important to remember that much of our everyday language comes from Scandinavian & northern European sources. From what I have heard of him King Cnut (in Danish) or Knut (in Norwegian) was a good king and a wise man who'd have forgiven me if I couldn't quite get my tongue around his name. :-))

I have to keep reminding myself that e.g. the word "venue"
is pronounced differently in English & French.... :-))

Yeah, the French don't like "e" at the end of words. ;-) As said
one Russian literature personage "there there is some mystery or
a perverted tastes". ;-)

From a brief scan of my French/English dictionary I conclude that the French use "e" at the end of words but probably don't say it aloud. However, I understand that to some folks an "e" ending may make a name seem classier. :-Q




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Ardith Hinton!
I read your message from 31.10.2024 02:48

I suspect that "gn" and "kn" are forgotten English diphthongs,
like "th".

Hmm. Technically, a diphthong is a two-part vowel sound... "th" is
a consonant digraph in which two letters represent a single sound
(our version of the Old & Middle English thorn)... while "gn"
and "kn" are consonant blends.

And, BTW, "h" and "n" look suspiciously similar. Maybe there were times when gnash and knife were ghash and khife? Somebody, a not very sober monk, maybe, made a mistake when writing a book, and in view of the fact that 98 percent people long ago couldn't read at all nobody noticed anything. ;-)

I have to keep reminding myself that e.g. the word "venue" is
pronounced differently in English & French.... :-))

Yeah, the French don't like "e" at the end of words. ;-) As said
one Russian literature personage "there there is some mystery or a
perverted tastes". ;-)

From a brief scan of my French/English dictionary I conclude that
the French use "e" at the end of words but probably don't say it
aloud.

We can guess at why people invented letters at all. ;-)

Bye, Ardith!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

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Re: Strange a bit
By: Ardith Hinton to Alexander Koryagin on Tue Oct 08 2024 18:36:08

I can consult a modern English/English dictionary...

An English/ENGLISH dictionary?

I can check the card catalogue at the public library.

Those still exist?
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Re: Strange a bit
By: Alexander Koryagin to Ardith Hinton on Mon Oct 21 2024 10:52:38

I wonder when in the USA they simplified English they could do the same.

Heh, just hang out on social media, you'll see a lot of that.
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Re: Strange a bit
By: Mike Powell to ALEXANDER KORYAGIN on Mon Oct 21 2024 09:11:00

No, I don't think so. Bear refers to both males and females. I am not
sure what, if any, the gender specific nouns for bear are.

Google is your friend. Male bears are called "boars", while females are called "sows". Baby bears, regardless of gender, are "cubs".
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Hi, Mortar M.!
I read your message from 25.11.2024 03:49

It remains to me only to wonder about the English language
evolution.

Ouch - I've never seen this AH answer.

If social media's any indication, I'd say it's more like
devolving. What's really weird is reading posts from
programmers--a skill where precision is essential--who seem
unable to write a sentence without committing spelling,
punctuation or other grammatical error, often all at once.

I still often forget to put ";" typing my C++ texts. Thanks to the compiler which checks it. ;-)

Bye, Mortar!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2024

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

No, I don't think so. Bear refers to both males and females. I am not sure what, if any, the gender specific nouns for bear are.

Google is your friend. Male bears are called "boars", while females are

alled

"sows". Baby bears, regardless of gender, are "cubs".

That might be. Around here, I don't think those terms are used. Reporters
and others usually just say "male" or "female" when talking about bears.


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If social media's any indication, I'd say it's more like devolving. What's really weird is reading posts from programmers--a skill where precision is essential--who seem unable to write a sentence without committing spelling, punctuation or other grammatical error, often all at once.

As someone else pointed out, compilers catch a lot of their goofs for them.

Unless they are a COBOL programmer, most languages don't look much
like English. Having worked for years as a programmer (COBOL) in a shop
where we had multiple programming languages in use, I am not at all shocked that programmers have such issues when it comes to expressing themselves in writing.

Mike


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Re: Strange a bit
By: Mike Powell to MORTAR M. on Mon Nov 25 2024 10:40:00

As someone else pointed out, compilers catch a lot of their goofs for them.

And your both missing the point. Consider the context of the msg. as a whole and you might gleam what I'm saying.
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As someone else pointed out, compilers catch a lot of their goofs for them.

And your both missing the point. Consider the context of the msg. as a whole and you might gleam what I'm saying.

Unless you were being sarcastic, I am not missing the point. Many
programmers I know, especially once that never learned COBOL, really have issues with written communication.

Their reading skills are sometimes awful, too. I cannot count the number
of times I would email something to a developer only to have them show up
at my desk where I would repeat (often word for word) what was in the email
so that they could understand it.

Unless your original post was in sarcasm, I don't agree with it.

As an aside, I will say there are many programmers who participate in the
BBS networks that don't seem to have as much of a problem with writing and reading. I have never worked alongside any of the programmers I have
conversed with on BBSes. For whatever reason, many I meet in real life are lacking in both.


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Hi Mortar,

25.11.2024 1:24:44, Mortar M. wrote:

Male bears are called "boars", while females are called "sows"

You just happened to make too many typos in the word "pigs". Wow!
:-)

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