Howdy all!
Here's a converstation starter for you:
What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based (NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly comporable to dialup.
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

IPoAC.

\%/@rd
--- DB4
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello Kostie;

Kostie Muirhead wrote to All <=-

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the
hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

To parallel amateur packet radio, CBers also do packet and I understand a
good number of them use my software to do so with. In many cases a license
is NOT required. There's also the possibility of building a private 802.11 network not connected to the internet as well.

I'm currently a licensed radio operator so I could use packet.
Considering how little there's traffic on the packet BBS gating fido<>packet actually might not be a bad idea.

-Brian N1URO

... Your suggestion(s) have been received and saved for future reference.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: SBBS - Carnage! (1:142/103)

Hello Kostie Muirhead!

** On Saturday 15.05.21 - 17:14, Kostie Muirhead wrote to All:

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based
(NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination
of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great
potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly
comporable to dialup. ===

Now you've done it. This started me into a rabbit hole of LoRa
vs LoRaWAN, TTN, etc..

This article was among the first:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/free-vs-enterprise-lorawan-paul- mcmanus?articleId=6676227517722046464

When you say "NOT LoRaWan" are you referring to the entities
that have commercialized it?

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: FUTURE4FIDO = https://t.me/joinchat/SV_BQ0XcbSRoP4bt (2:221/1.58)

Howdy all!
Here's a converstation starter for you:
What technologies do you either know about, or can conceive of developing so as to create data links between nodes without relying on internet transit?

Ham packet radio is obviously one potential option, but has the hamstring that it requires a special license so is unlikely to be as accessible by the general tinkerer community.

I've been looking at the potential to setup LoRa based (NOT LoRaWan) connections and think that the combination of low cost, long range, and licence free access has great potential. Speeds at realistic distances are fairly comporable to dialup.
===

If there were enough nodes close enough a wifi based mesh maybe.. But LoRa is probably more promising. Or there is a new technology I got word on that involves these cards called modems.. they hook up to a phone line and dial phone numbers.. slow but effective ;) jk LoRa would be a fun thing to try. --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: RetroDigital BBS - rdnetbbs.com (1:342/11)

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe. Certainly can't find them around here, the closest living species is the VoIP ATA. :P

Let’s not be hating on the good ol’ copper lines lol.

Yeah I know lots of places don’t even have them anymore which I kinda think is sad. But a VOIP ATA isn’t the worst thing depending on the connect speed your expecting.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: RetroDigital BBS - rdnetbbs.com (1:342/11)

Deepend wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe. Certainly can't find them around here, the closest living species is the VoIP ATA. :P

Let's not be hating on the good ol' copper lines lol.

Imagine if we had the old POTS lines combined with nationwide free calling, like most cell phone plans have nowadays. The dial-up era was designed
around prohibitive toll charges.

Although, the local bbs.scene grew because of it, and people called local boards that could have gettogethers in meatspace.

"Cyberspace is where you are when you're on the telephone..."
-- William Gibson


... How did you find this place?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello Kurt Weiske!

** On Friday 21.05.21 - 07:05, Kurt Weiske wrote to Deepend:

What's a "phone line"? Some extinct species, I'm led to believe...

Let's not be hating on the good ol' copper lines lol.

Imagine if we had the old POTS lines combined with
nationwide free calling, like most cell phone plans have
nowadays. The dial-up era was designed around prohibitive
toll charges.

Around the time when I was operating a 2-line BBS in late 90's
to 2003, the phone companies already had LD plans that offered
nation-wide unlimited or limited calls for a fixed $20/mo or
so.

I had once such $20 plan for 500 minutes/mo or something like
that.

It worked well for moving mail to two LD hubs for a couple of
nets and for making crash calls to a few LD relatives that I
set up as points.

Although, the local bbs.scene grew because of it, and
people called local boards that could have gettogethers in
meatspace.

Yes.. the local aspect was a particular characeristic of
calling local boards (and the potential to meet the people you
were conversing with) back then.
--
../|ug
--- OpenXP 5.0.49
* Origin: FUTURE4FIDO = https://t.me/joinchat/SV_BQ0XcbSRoP4bt (2:221/1.58)

Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: August Abolins to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 02:12 pm

Now you've done it. This started me into a rabbit hole of LoRa
vs LoRaWAN, TTN, etc..

Haha, yup. It is a rabbit hole, and most material you'll find is very much geared towards IOT implementations without much base level information made available for easy digestion.

When you say "NOT LoRaWan" are you referring to the entities
that have commercialized it?

No, LoRaWan refers to using a gateway to pass information from/to nodes and a network attached service. It's highly reliant on the presence of an IP network and is really meant to allow for remote sensors/switches to interact with a centralized server.

LoRa itself refers to the equipment and modulation and can be used directly for peer to peer links in a manner very analogous to the acoustic modems of the past, or TNCs in the Ham Packet sphere.

While I can see some potential use cases for LoRaWan implementations to be used in the hobby:

1) Providing peer to peer access to local services NOT just
available on the internet is more likely to attract the tinker/electronic hobbyist crowd. IMHO at least.

2) Relying on the internet is not a good way to seed services that are meant to be an alternative to aspects of it (once again, imho).
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

Re: Internet transit alternat
By: Brian Rogers to Kostie Muirhead on Sat May 15 2021 08:28 pm

To parallel amateur packet radio, CBers also do packet and I understand a good number of them use my software to do so with. In many cases a license is NOT required. There's also the possibility of building a private 802.11 network not connected to the internet as well.

Yeah, that would be more accessible, but unfortunately there are many jurisdictions (One of which being the country I live in) where data over CB is prohibited. I'm sure there are still people doing it, but trying to encourage people to join you in an endeavour that could lead to some ticketing is probably a strategy I wouldn't put at the top of my list of things I want to try :D
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

Re: Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Ward Dossche to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 12:28 pm

IPoAC.

Ah yes, we just need to put sneakers on them to make it the air-mail equivalent of a sneaker net.
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

Glad to see you, Kostie!

Re: Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Ward Dossche to Kostie Muirhead on Sun May 16 2021 12:28 pm

IPoAC.

Ah yes, we just need to put sneakers on them to make it the air-mail equivalent of a sneaker net.
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS

Don't disparage Sneaker Nets... That's exactly what I'm proposing for one project I'm involved with.

*** [Netmail-to-Telegram address: 474405162@2:460/256]

... Tag, you are IT!
--- tg BBS v0.6.4
* Origin: Fido by Telegram BBS from Stas Mishchenkov (2:460/256)

Hello Kostie;

Kostie Muirhead wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

Yeah, that would be more accessible, but unfortunately there are many jurisdictions (One of which being the country I live in) where data
over CB is prohibited. I'm sure there are still people doing it, but trying to encourage people to join you in an endeavour that could lead
to some ticketing is probably a strategy I wouldn't put at the top of
my list of things I want to try :D ===

I know in the netherlands CB packet is not only legal but moreso used than amateur radio packet from what I've been told. 802.11 would be more feasible and a LOT faster. Just think of what big ISPs would do if they had to
compete against a massive volunteer network? While that scenario is doubtful it's something I'd love to see. <G>

... Don't sneeze when someone is cutting your hair.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
* Origin: SBBS - Carnage! (1:142/103)

Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sat Jun 05 2021 10:59 am

I've been trying to read up on alternative (to the internet) methods of connecting BBSes together - and was wondering if LoRa could be used.

Yeah, there seem to be a few of us with similar curiosities and ambitions that way. That shows some promise for adoption and hobbyist attraction :)

Everything I've been reading hints at IOT devices, which I am assuming means low (status like) traffic.
Could LoRa be used to transmit mail packets between peers?

The really easily accessible LoRa information, and all the off the shelf modules are geared and directed towards IOT use. And you get far better range and connection reliability at lower link rates. Given that dialup speeds are typical, people tend to write it off for more than signalling use. I have found a couple projects that use peer to peer for exchanging data like sms messages and email. There's no reason it couldn't transfer mail packets, and that's one of the use cases I want to explore. I'd like to have a terminal node via LoRa as well, but even if it ends up having to be more of a mailserver/nntp server type link it could be a huge win I think.

I think the range can be around 20klm - can it?
I know nothing about this technology, so I'm curious...

That's dependent on several factors, but a low data rate link with good antennas with line of site in a rural environment should be able to hit those sorts of distances. From what I've read of experiences of people setting up longer links, 1-10 KM at dialup data rates is fairly achievable in an urban environment.

I'm still largely in the research stage, but have a box of tranceivers coming to start playing with. They've just been in customs processing limbo, which can take a while when dealing with the speed demons in Canadian customs... As soon as I have them in hand I'll be able to experiment more directly and report.
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sun Jun 06 2021 11:05 am

You've inspired me to research more - I thought I was looking in a dead end, but I'll keep looking now.
I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

When I get things figured I intend to at the very least compile and share a bill of materials and information documenting processes. Or see about sourcing or assembly if there's enough desire. Research and play time are first though :)

I'm really hoping something with long range 20-200klm (which may not be lora) - since my use case is BBS mail and sadly there arent that many BBSes near me anymore (and I have atleast somebody to interact with) :(

Yeah, I think the longer links would likely require some form of licenced band usage, but if there's a scenario where local areas can connect with cheap licence free options and then hub with someone handling the long distance hops it would still be fairly attractive - I mean it was when we were all on dialup.
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)

Re: Internet transit alternatives
By: Deon George to Kostie Muirhead on Sun Jun 06 2021 11:05 am

I'm happy to get some kit to play with as well - especially if you get something going.

I've also been working on a binkp compatible mailer over the last week or so to get a baseline working codebase to play with in the project. Sneak preview:

https://imgur.com/nG9M3W3.png
===
Underminer - The Undermine BBS
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca (1:134/101)